Zotlabs|Hubzilla Development

W3C Proposed Zot Protocol Community Group

Sat, 15 Jun 2019 10:20:34 +0000 last edited: Fri, 28 Jun 2019 23:59:03 +0000

The zot protocol Community Group has been proposed by Max Elder:

To standardize the Zot protocol currently used in Hubzilla and Zap, and to push its adoption for social web.

You are invited to support the creation of this group. Once the group has a total of five supporters, it will be launched and people can join to begin work. In order to support the group, you will need a W3C account.

Read more, join, or support this W3C Community group at https://www.w3.org/community/blog/2019/03/11/proposed-group-zot-protocol-community-group/

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For those not familiar with W3C, the World Wide Web Consortium (W3C) is the main international standards organization for the World Wide Web (abbreviated WWW or W3)

For those not familiar with W3C Community groups, they are:
• "proposed and run by the community."
• "designed to promote innovation and to lower barriers to individual participation."
• "enable anyone to socialize their ideas for the Web at the W3C for possible future standardization".
Read more at https://www.w3.org/community/about/
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This is one of my first posts on Hubzilla. Your suggestion or questions are always really welcome :)
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Archive W3C Community Group page
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Mentions

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@Andrew
@Mario Vavti
@Max Kostikov

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show all 67 Comments

Sat, 15 Jun 2019 12:20:19 +0000

Without Zot author @Mike Macgirvin there is nothing to talk about

hEARt PhoniX

Sat, 15 Jun 2019 13:39:42 +0000 last edited: Sat, 15 Jun 2019 13:40:33 +0000

I see Mike's photo at the group's supporters entry.

Sat, 15 Jun 2019 14:53:09 +0000

@h.ear.t
Thanks, I just saw him there too

hEARt PhoniX

Sat, 15 Jun 2019 17:13:24 +0000

And I am supporter #5 ^^

Francois Carpentier

Sat, 15 Jun 2019 21:25:16 +0000 last edited: Sat, 15 Jun 2019 22:26:29 +0000

Without Zot author @Mike Macgirvin there is nothing to talk about

Hello @Max Kostikov :) Thanks for both your comment and all your contribution to Hubzilla. I agree that @Mike Macgirvin is a valuable and important part of this W3C Community group. Assuming he is both available and interested. The good news is that according to this Community group page, Mike is. All are welcome to join the group. Including you Max. I see that today you also joined. Welcome.

Maybe my original message was not clear. My intention was to extend an invitation to other Hubzilla enthusiasts for their review for interest. My intention was not to interfere with anyone ;) In other words, Mike is the original author of the baby Hubzilla, now the baby is interested in further growth, LOL (joke ;)
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@All :) For those not familiar with Mike. He is the original author of Hubzilla. Mike choose a MIT license. Which implies that he invite the Hubzilla community to continue Hubzilla growth and protect your rights. According to Hubzilla Governance, "The [Hubzilla] project is maintained and decisions made by the 'community'." All are welcome to join the efforts. There are many ways in which you are welcome to contribute to Hubzilla.

For those not familiar with W3C Community groups, they are:
• "proposed and run by the community."
• "designed to promote innovation and to lower barriers to individual participation."
• "enable anyone to socialize their ideas for the Web at the W3C for possible future standardization".
Read more at https://www.w3.org/community/about/

Francois Carpentier

Sat, 15 Jun 2019 21:34:48 +0000

And I am supporter #5 ^^

Thanks for joining @h.EAR.t and welcome :)

hEARt PhoniX

Mon, 17 Jun 2019 22:45:48 +0000 last edited: Tue, 18 Jun 2019 00:16:17 +0000

I thought with 5 supporters the group would be established? Now we are 6 ...
Maybe I'll just need more patience ...

Francois Carpentier

Mon, 24 Jun 2019 20:55:24 +0000 last edited: Mon, 24 Jun 2019 20:56:07 +0000

@h.EAR.t :) I was wondering the same thing. As of today June 24th the "zot protocol" Community group is supported/sponsored by 7 people. Matthew Dent is the 7th who joined. But the group is not yet showing in the current groups at https://www.w3.org/community/groups/

This is the last information I'm aware of from W3. Which you already know about:

Once the group has a total of five supporters, it will be launched and people can join to begin work.

Once launched, the group will no longer be listed as “proposed”; it will be in the list of current groups.

I was assuming that after 5+ sponsors, the launch was automated. I guess either someone at W3 needs time for their manual action, or their review for approval. Or maybe Max Elder needs to do a manual action from his end. I'm assuming he is a volunteer so speaking for myself I'm grateful for his contribution, and he is really welcome to take as much time as he needs. Maybe there is another action we're not aware of is in progress.

hEARt PhoniX

Mon, 24 Jun 2019 21:44:25 +0000

Yes, I had been looking for a while but ... we'll see.

El Dorado

Tue, 25 Jun 2019 03:34:34 +0000

Without Zot author @Michael Macgirvin there is nothing to talk about

Interestingly I have a totally different opinion. This isn't about me and never was. This is about what kind of future you want. Facebook is not a very appealing future, and frankly neither is Mastodon. What we've got is a pretty solid basis for something incredibly great. I'm an old man relatively speaking with health issues and who is already living beyond the most optimistic expectations. It's unlikely I'll be around to see this through. If others don't pick up the ball and run with it the ball isn't likely to make it into the endzone.

Haakon Meland Eriksen (Parlementum)

Tue, 25 Jun 2019 21:36:16 +0000

Supported. Cannot see my name, though.

Max

Wed, 26 Jun 2019 09:55:38 +0000

@Francois Carpentier : no, I don't have any tools to launch the group. This need a validation from the W3 staff. We just have to wait a bit.
The next step will be to choose a chairman, and to write a charter https://github.com/w3c/cg-charter

Einer von Vielen

Wed, 26 Jun 2019 22:05:30 +0000

@Haakon Meland Eriksen (Parlementum) I do see your name

hEARt PhoniX

Thu, 27 Jun 2019 00:00:56 +0000

13 Supporter. No idea how this works.

Waitman Gobble

Thu, 27 Jun 2019 02:36:50 +0000

I added 14. Can't wait till we get to 5, maybe by March 2020! New Math is weirdo

OJ Random

Thu, 27 Jun 2019 12:46:58 +0000

14+Baby=15 @Waitman Gobble promising youth, promising times

emaxmax

Thu, 27 Jun 2019 13:28:02 +0000

It's launched! https://www.w3.org/community/zot/

Haakon Meland Eriksen (Parlementum)

Thu, 27 Jun 2019 19:35:29 +0000 last edited: Thu, 27 Jun 2019 21:15:51 +0000

# Step 0 - Create a W3 Zot protocol community group

Completed.

# Step 1- Join W3 Zot protocol community group
You can now join the new group and become a participant via https://www.w3.org/community/zot/join

Create a W3 profile, login and join.

As of now, only four people including myself have joined the new W3 Zot group as participants, see https://www.w3.org/community/zot/participants

# Step 2 - Elect a Chair
Participants can be elected by other participants as Chair. Chair can leave position.

Edit: just received an automatic email from W3 I am Chair, which seems premature.

Edit: https://www.w3.org/community/zot/participants shows no Chair is elected yet - the automatic email was wrong, good.

# Step 3 - Publish documents
After Chair is elected from participants, the group can publish documents. There is a FAQ about how to run group and available tools.

Harald Klimach

Thu, 27 Jun 2019 22:00:34 +0000

So, Max would be the natural chair, as he made the proposal? Or what are the plans?

Haakon Meland Eriksen (Parlementum)

Thu, 27 Jun 2019 22:39:00 +0000

I would rather NOT be chair. However, I would like to know who Max Elder is, a short intro would be nice. The floor is yours, Max.

( https://osada.app/channel/max gave a 404 tonight, so perhaps Max has a clone somewhere?)

Waitman Gobble

Fri, 28 Jun 2019 02:26:06 +0000

Long live the Chair! Are you the chair? What does a chair do?

Waitman Gobble

Fri, 28 Jun 2019 02:27:28 +0000

Osada.app was taken down.

Waitman Gobble

Fri, 28 Jun 2019 03:20:20 +0000

I sent Max an email and told him we are waiting for him here.

Waitman Gobble

Fri, 28 Jun 2019 03:24:28 +0000

Actually i have a hunch that emaxmax who announced 'it launched' earlier in this thread is the same max

Haakon Meland Eriksen (Parlementum)

Fri, 28 Jun 2019 05:45:42 +0000

Right, to keep the ball rolling, I have proposed four of five participants as Chair, excluding myself, based on interest, known involvement with development and trust. I hope this is okay, you can unelect yourselves as needed. Congratulations to Max Elder, Tobias Luther, Max Kostikov and Harald Klimach!

$\o/$ :champagne:

Harald Klimach

Fri, 28 Jun 2019 06:59:33 +0000

I would also rather not serve as a chair. I am lacking all the expertise, I fear.

Harald Klimach

Fri, 28 Jun 2019 07:13:09 +0000

Starting point for the report would be https://framagit.org/zot/zap/tree/master/spec/Zot6?

Max

Fri, 28 Jun 2019 07:19:17 +0000

@Haakon Meland Eriksen (Parlementum)
I'm just a #hubzilla user willing to see more project adopting #Zot, which implies clear and reviewed specifications.
I can't and won't be chair, but I will try to review the proposed documentation.
@Waitman Gobble is right : @emaxmax is my Hubzilla account to help debug an issue with Mastodon.

And the first point after electing the chair is to write the Charter which will explain what documents we intend to produce. Next, indeed, our starting point will be the documentation on framagit.

El Dorado

Fri, 28 Jun 2019 07:39:33 +0000 last edited: Fri, 28 Jun 2019 08:31:18 +0000

Looks like I was promoted or nominated to chair; either that or they're just picking people at random. I also respectfully decline for health reasons.

[Edit: Though I will provide assistance and clarifications and specification edits as my situation permits. The next month or two isn't looking promising. Some deficiencies in the spec that I'm currently aware of are:

- more detail on the existing/deployed permissions. Permissions are extensible and can be somewhat arbitrary but we do use a few of the existing ones in ways that need to be better documented.

- Detail on 2 or 3 extensions we've provided to ActivityStreams to make our life easier. They aren't absolutely necessary but are good to have in a Zot environment.

- Nomadic content is not well documented. It also isn't really being used at the moment but will be important going forward.
]

Harald Klimach

Fri, 28 Jun 2019 08:12:05 +0000

Looks like I was promoted or nominated to chair; either that or they're just picking people at random.

That was my fault, I nominated you in my place...

Haakon Meland Eriksen (Parlementum)

Fri, 28 Jun 2019 08:15:49 +0000

@Harald Klimach - https://framagit.org/zot/zap/tree/master/spec is probably a better starting point, since we need to describe both decentralized authentication (OpenWebAuth - OWA) and decentralized authorization (Zot).

@Mike Macgirvin - related to Harald's question - have there been any updates to the specs which are not available in https://framagit.org/zot/zap/tree/master/spec ? I ask since the last updates are five months old.

Haakon Meland Eriksen (Parlementum)

Fri, 28 Jun 2019 08:39:21 +0000

Right, we are down to you Tobias Luther - @h.ear.t or you Max Kostikov - @Max Kostikov , which boils down to a need for a chair to move forward at all within W3, personal motivation and opportunity, opportunity - having or being willing to have - being key.

@h.ear.t and @Max Kostikov - as a highly active Hubzilla and Zot developers - see https://zotlabs.org/page/hubzilla/hubzilla-project and https://framagit.org/kostikov - I think it makes sense for you two to be chair and co-chair or vise-versa. What say you?

Fri, 28 Jun 2019 08:50:06 +0000 last edited: Fri, 28 Jun 2019 08:51:12 +0000

@Haakon Meland Eriksen (Parlementum) I'm really appreciate for your trust but sorry, guys, but I'm not ready to take any chairs because of lack of my Zot knowledge. I believe @Mario Vavti will be a right person.

Mario Vavti

Fri, 28 Jun 2019 09:33:43 +0000

I believe @Mario Vavti will be a right person.

Sorry, i can not afford more time besides my work for Hubzilla in the foreseeable future.
I am willing to help though if i can...

Haakon Meland Eriksen (Parlementum)

Fri, 28 Jun 2019 09:45:10 +0000

Right, @h.ear.t - will you be chair?

hEARt PhoniX

Fri, 28 Jun 2019 10:22:23 +0000

A chair may also be a moderator, I suppose? And I guess we'll do this together anyway.
As almost all of us I stumbled into this without knowing much wat to expect. :)

Maybe we should create a dedicated channel to coordinate ourselves in the background. I'd create a zot coordination channel at zotlabs.org as a primary home if this may seem useful to you.

Harald Klimach

Fri, 28 Jun 2019 10:42:39 +0000

Yes, I think that would be helpful, there are also two mailing lists and an IRC channel available from the w3c group. Though, I am not quite sure how to use the mailing lists. I guess, those that joined the group are automatically subscribed.

Harald Klimach

Fri, 28 Jun 2019 10:47:17 +0000

It probably would also be a good idea to have a repository where we can create the reports together.

Harald Klimach

Fri, 28 Jun 2019 11:07:07 +0000

Could also try out https://papeeria.com/ for text editing, but I have no idea how well that works. Alternatively we could make use of Authorea. I started a sample document there: https://www.authorea.com/380497/9VZPTNdcG4210gs-AGgVzw

Max

Fri, 28 Jun 2019 11:32:23 +0000

@Francois Carpentier @Max Kostikov @h.ear.t @ojrandom @emaxmax @Harald Klimach
Remember we can ask for a wiki if needed: https://www.w3.org/community/about/tool/

Haakon Meland Eriksen (Parlementum)

Fri, 28 Jun 2019 11:56:31 +0000

May I suggest to use our regular tools set to public access, then link in those at W3? In the beginning it will be us anyway, and showing off our own Zot enabled sites and tools, e.g. wiki tools, chat tools or Framasoft git wiki etc, will show potential newcomers that we are not "paperware".

Harald Klimach

Fri, 28 Jun 2019 14:38:50 +0000

May I suggest to use our regular tools set to public access, then link in those at W3?

Of course, but for the creation of an actual report design of the specification, I think it is better to use a repository than a wiki. All communication around it would perfectly well fit into channel on zotlabs, as suggested by @h.EAR.t.

hEARt PhoniX

Fri, 28 Jun 2019 14:50:19 +0000

Ok. I will only do it if we try to get this flying all together. I am even more clueless as of now. Regarding Zot details and W3C workings.

hEARt PhoniX

Fri, 28 Jun 2019 15:03:13 +0000

https://zotlabs.org/channel/zot

Francois Carpentier

Fri, 28 Jun 2019 23:28:59 +0000

>I'm an old man relatively speaking with health issues and who is already living beyond the most optimistic expectations. It's unlikely I'll be around to see this through.
@Mike Macgirvin :) Sorry to hear that about your health challenges. I hope your road to recovery is short, sweet, and brings you at a healthy place to your liking. Take care. BTW could a patch file fix your health challenges? If yes, I would be happy to test such patch, or write the documentation. (joke ;) I wish it would be this easy.

>If others don't pick up the ball and run with it the ball isn't likely to make it into the endzone.
Good point. I feel confident both Zot and Hubzilla presently feel the love from all sides. In turn, this will fuel them up toward the endzone. As original author, it was wise from you to choose an open source MIT license. During your recovery this might make both your life and recovery easier. I guess the more contributors join the efforts, the easier it will be for you to scale up or down your contribution depending on your present health. Also such license will protect all your projects to remain focus on public interests.

Wishing you all you need to both feel better and be back at an healthy place to your liking

Francois Carpentier

Fri, 28 Jun 2019 23:49:37 +0000 last edited: Fri, 28 Jun 2019 23:52:37 +0000

>Maybe we should create a dedicated channel to coordinate ourselves in the background. I'd create a zot coordination channel at zotlabs.org as a primary home if this may seem useful to you.

@h.EAR.t :) Good idea. +1 for this. By using a Hubzilla channel powered by Zot protocol, we would walk our talk. In turn, this is likely to build trust and confidence in Zot.

I joined the channel at

'cause we've got Zot

zot@zotlabs.org

https://zotlabs.org/channel/zot

Nice touch with the 'cause we've got Zot title. It's funny :)

Francois Carpentier

Sat, 29 Jun 2019 18:06:20 +0000 last edited: Sat, 29 Jun 2019 18:22:04 +0000

@h.EAR.t :) About the Hubzilla zot channel you created to coordinate ourselves. I tried to joined at https://zotlabs.org/channel/zot but it did not work. I'm new to Hubzilla. Maybe there is an additional step I have not yet learn about?

Steps to reproduce

1. Go to https://zotlabs.org/channel/zot

2. User is automatically log-in with "OpenWebAuth"

3. Click on "Connect" green button

4. This message is automatically added: "Connection added."

5. Go back to https://zotlabs.org/channel/zot User is not able to post anything to the zot channel. Not able to like, not able to add comment, mention are not showing.

Was this channel meant for all contributors? Or just for the chair? Or else?

Francois Carpentier

Sat, 29 Jun 2019 18:37:46 +0000

Good morning @Haakon Meland Eriksen (Parlementum) :) About your comment

# Step 1- Join W3 Zot protocol community group
You can now join the new group and become a participant via https://www.w3.org/community/zot/join

Create a W3 profile, login and join.

As of now, only three people including myself have joined the new W3 Zot group as participants.

Done. Yesterday Jun 28th I sent my request to join the group as participants. I received a confirmation message from W3. They are reviewing my request.

El Dorado

Sun, 30 Jun 2019 03:54:49 +0000

have there been any updates to the specs

The basic specs are pretty stable. I mentioned in an edit to an earlier comment what needed to be updated. Primarily this is more detail on permissions, ActivityStreams extensions, and nomadic content.

hEARt PhoniX

Sun, 30 Jun 2019 07:27:51 +0000

@Mike Macgirvin Missed that post, thanks.

OJ Random

Sun, 30 Jun 2019 14:44:07 +0000

@Haakon Meland Eriksen (Parlementum) I would like to propose you as one of the chairmens.

hEARt PhoniX

Sun, 30 Jun 2019 20:49:03 +0000

I am right now attempting to deeper ubderstand the specs. I think I may attempt my own writeup and explanation, as that can best make sure I get it.

Harald Klimach

Mon, 01 Jul 2019 07:02:50 +0000

@h.EAR.t I connected to the channel but can't comment there.

hEARt PhoniX

Mon, 01 Jul 2019 12:10:16 +0000

Should be resolved. It's now a public forum.

emaxmax

Tue, 02 Jul 2019 07:55:43 +0000

Don't forget to advocate this group to #Activitypub developers: their reviews will be interesting.

Harald Eilertsen

Tue, 23 Jul 2019 14:10:02 +0000

This is a great initiative! Not able to join the w3c group as it's guarded by google's grim claws, but I hope to be able to follow the most important discussions in this group as well :)

rialtate

Wed, 24 Jul 2019 22:52:32 +0000

@Harald Eilertsen same

Wed, 24 Jul 2019 22:57:54 +0000 last edited: Wed, 24 Jul 2019 22:57:35 +0000

@Harald Eilertsen -for different reasons, but I'm unable to join o.n W3C as well. Hopefully discussion will be primarily on our own platform and then the consolidated results on W3C
..

Sat, 31 Aug 2019 20:26:56 +0000

@Harald Eilertsen same too

Haakon Meland Eriksen (Parlementum)

Wed, 04 Sep 2019 05:06:30 +0000

Chairs, what is the current status and roadmap ahead?

hEARt PhoniX

Wed, 04 Sep 2019 06:42:43 +0000

You have not missed a thing. I am using my vacation right now to create a suggestion.
The W3C wants us to use their tools as far as I understand. But I am all for consolidating.
Give me a few days still, I am eeading and preparing.

emaxmax

Mon, 03 Feb 2020 09:27:03 +0000

Bad news: https://github.com/pixelfed/pixelfed/issues/216
Pixelfed refuse nomadic identities. With Zot specs it could have been different...

Haakon Meland Eriksen (Parlementum)

Mon, 03 Feb 2020 14:36:59 +0000

Can we simply point to our spec or copy-paste it into W3 to get moving?

Mon, 03 Feb 2020 23:01:39 +0000

I like how the well explained proposition is responded to.

We are not interested in nomadic identity.

Haakon Meland Eriksen (Parlementum)

Mon, 03 Feb 2020 23:49:18 +0000

:laughing: We have a word for this in Norwegian - heimføding - a person who is unfamiliar with conditions, customs and cultures outside their home. The heimføding is "not interested in nomadic identity", because they fear once you get a taste for nomadic identity, you will never stay home and be out partying all night!

:champagne: :cocktail:

#gotzot

Harald Eilertsen

Tue, 04 Feb 2020 08:53:35 +0000

@Haakon Meland Eriksen (Parlementum)

heimføding

While that may be it, I don't think so. It's quite clear that introducing nomadic identities will require architectural, and potentially breaking changes to their existing system, the price may be too high compared to the demand. They have a lot on their roadmap, and are progressing quite fast, so spending time on something only a few of us weirdo's here out in Zot land wants may not be the right choice for them. Especially if it will slow down the rest of their development.

That said, the thread should be archived somewhere. It gives a good overview of how some early architectural choices will allow or block certain features up the road.

Haakon Meland Eriksen (Parlementum)

Tue, 04 Feb 2020 15:14:26 +0000

introducing nomadic identities will require architectural, and potentially breaking changes to their existing system

Yup.

To clarify the use of the potensial insult 'heimføding'. We - through DFRN and Zot - have 10 years of experience with live federation and have already met most bumps in the road. We have repeatedly tried our best to share those experiences with those who came after, so they could get resilience and built-in privacy and did not have to get those bad experiences, which are very similar to the dialogue in Monty Python's Dead Parrot skit - I paraphrase:

Owner: No no! The hub is pining!

Mr. Praline: 'E's not pinin'! 'E's passed on! This hub is no more! It has ceased to be! 'E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker! 'E's a stiff! Bereft of life, 'e rests in peace! If you hadn't nailed 'im to the perch 'e'd be pushing up the daisies! 'Is metabolic processes are now 'istory! 'E's off the twig! 'E's kicked the bucket, 'e's shuffled off 'is mortal coil, run down the curtain and joined the bleedin' choir invisible!! THIS IS AN EX-HUB!!

Ex-hubs galore, so if those new solutions do not allow you to take your friends and data and go before a hub dies - we do it live by cloning, then I am afraid you will not enjoy the federation very much. Just don't let them tell you they were not told, because they were.

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